What is a raid leader and the flex situation.

[vivex]

What is a raid leader? 
I'm kind of surprised i didn't see a thread for this already considering it is the big question in the guild of the month or at least it is among the raiders of the guild. In my opinion a raid leader should very literally lead the raid. The raid leader should be a person who can keep the raid focused when it gets off track and to keep it moving at a decent pace so the guild can get the most gear possible with its limited one raid night a week. To do so a raid leader should know at least how the fights are done and also be able to address concerns as they come up. 

The Flex situation 
I have found only a few who seem to agree with me on this and even less who are willing to discuss it, so i will post my thoughts on this here.  The problem for those who may read this and don't know is that a few people who want to come to the guild flex runs have stopped doing so and feel they can't join us. The guild has responded by deciding that this is more or less the raid leaders fault and if we had a new one these problems would be gone and these people will come back. I have problems with this and feel this is not how things should be done. 

The problem: From what i have been told these people feel they cannot join us in flex but they want to. When i ask why to the people who tell me this i get the response that they don't like the hostile vibe and such from flex. My response to this is what flex group are they going to? The flex i go to is pretty chill for the most part and is joking around about the Garrosh ballerina team, am i missing something here? When i get up to do the dishes do you guys get into shouting matches while i am gone and somehow get over it by the time i get back? My first problem is i don't see this hostility that they are apparently trying to avoid. My second problem is how they are choosing to go about the problem they are having, by not talking with the guild and instead doing this silent apparent my way or the high way mentality is not OK in any raid environment in my eyes.  When i say things like this i tend to get a "well we are a community based guild so we have to do what is best for everybody." And i agree we are indeed a community based guild so why are we not going about this with a community based answer? Shouldn't these people we are trying to please be apart of the community and say "Hey i would like to flex but feel i cant because 'blank' i would be willing to come again if 'blank' "? Until they do how do we know this "oh just get a new raid leader." solution will even work, do we know for sure if ten steps down from raid leader that all these people will start coming again? What if the new raid leader is sick one weekend and ten has to be the temp leader again for that weekend should we just expect that these 5-10 people are going to refuse to come again and to be OK with that? What if some people don't like the new raid leader do we just keep changing to get one that pleases everybody? And the final question i will ask is should we condone this? By doing so we as a guild say this is how our raid problems can and should be handled, got a problem with the raid? Don't talk it out with the guild just don't show up and wait awhile we will change for your problems regardless if they are valid or not.  

So to sum it up i feel the response of just getting a new raid leader solves nothing and is not how we should solve our problems.

[Deleted]

In regards to the problem. It is not the guild's response to change the raid leader, but my personal response actually. I've had a lot of issues in my life where I know I can be stressful to people and I've done my best not to bring that into the guild. Raiding does bring that out in me, so I've kept myself out of the main raid lead position. This didn't resolve the Flex issue since Light isn't available to play a lot. I brought this up in discussion at the end of a flex night with the 10 or so people who were there. A few had to leave early in the discussion. The feel I took away that night was that the regular raiders don't mind my approach as I push them to do better and that compensates for any rough edges or occasional bruised egos. Concern over others is purely personal on my end, as I don't like the idea of the guild being exclusionary in its activities. While the nature of 10-man raiding is exclusionary, that limit will be lifted come Warlords and I'd like to see everyone who wants to raid get the opportunity, while still satisfying the needs of the team for a person to pull their weight.

It is my belief/fear that there are people who avoid coming to raids because they're uncomfortable with the demands placed upon them there - orders barked, called out if mistakes are made, dps expectations, learning and memorizing fights to master them. Expectations are part of raiding as it's meant to be difficult in a fun way. The various difficulties of raiding are meant to address the levels of difficulty and stress which people are comfortable with. Flex may be easy mode and very laid back, but that is a subjective thing.

My first response was to open up guild LFR nights, in order to provide a raid outlet for people who had difficulty in Flex as a way to bridge the gap if they found it inaccessible. In that setting I focus on teaching things to people and place no expectations or give orders. So far that has met with low turnout and almost all of the turnout has been by existing 10-man members looking to chill with or help out guildies, gear alts, easy valor etc. I'm not anticipating continuing that initiative into next month at current.

As for the current question of raid lead, the initial discussion I had with the raid team that night has prompted 2 things. 1 - What is the role of the raid leader? What are people looking for? I should've started this thread earlier to continue that discussion, so thank you Viv for starting it. 2 - To foster further growth among the current raiders, promote empathy and a change of perspective as people see what it is like to both lead and follow, field test a possible raid lead replacement and continue the discussion in a more hands on way - over the next month or two, people will be taking turns leading a Flex night.

Lastly, I discussed at the officer's meeting last month changing up the day/time we run Flex nights. I know there are scheduling conflicts for some people. I will start a 2nd thread to solicit people's suggestions of what works for them, particularly from those not currently but wanting to raid.

[Dugand]

I have not been around to experience any of this as I am still very new to the guild. BUT.... I wanted to throw in my two cents from being a raid leader for quite a long time in different guilds and factions ranging from 40man to 10man strict teams, I feel that the idea of having individuals take turns leading Flex runs is a GREAT idea as there is soo much that can be easily overlooked on all parties and roles by simply showing up and doing your role in a raid. It may even spark some interest in some to lead more raids and events as there is a certain thrill and enjoyment that many (including myself) get out of the game that most do not experience, and even fewer are experiencing with all of the changes that Blizzard has made to instancing and raiding.

[Salanas]

*********For future readers: I'm not saying weakness makes you a lesser of a person just that you have weaker or smaller tolerance for what and who says things to you. Not all are can withstand criticizing and that is OK. My apologizes to those that may have taken that in the wrong direction. 

Raid Leader: A raid leader in my eyes is an individual that takes initiative to learn content and to direct where push comes to shove situations arise. This question has been thrown around a lot so I'll keep my answer to this simple and sweet.

The Elephant in the Room: "When there's an Elephant in the room address it." The previous question this question has been thrown into the mix and I feel it needs to be addressed as well. Some argue that Yes, the reason many haven't come is because of Ten, it's as simple as that there is no sense in hiding it so I won't and I'll address this on a direct front like this topic has seems to be going. The title of this comes from a novel I'm reading for school and I feel it's relevant to this situation. But the other point arises that Ten himself has made this decision with the community in mind? Doesn't that show some honor and protection and concern for others I think so. So if you are one that has been offended by this where are your actions to this situation? 

Weakness OR Sensitivity?: Like what I said at the meeting when this situation first arose, Not everyone is strong and take direct comments and just shrug it off and move on. There are some that are prone to beating themselves up when receiving a direct comment on performance or other things in that nature. Everyone has faults and can be sensitive. Some are not as tough emotionally to take direct comments on performance and in general like being yelled at. I am weak, I admit that and have no shame I cannot take direct jabs at performance like others. If I'm doing something wrong and get commented on it I take it hard and beat myself up. If you read this and have talked to me or anything as such you know this. There are some that constantly comment on my healing performance I won't say names but I'll keep it at that. But with that I try to push myself harder to on that higher tier of the charts. So if you are one that is emotionally weaker what can you do to take steps to take a hit? Challenge yourself, I played a sport and have had that constant idea in my mind. It's a trigger that clicks when you are put in the spotlight of your faults. This may be common knowledge and not worth reading but I feel it has some notion. (Or simply it is the time I am typing this and have seemed to have gone off track.)

Initiative: So I'll leave this thread off with a question. What are we as the raiding group doing for this and what have those that feel they cannot come due to complications doing for this? This could be answered simply or with a devoted answer but in this situation who has seemed to take more action on this complication?

[Salanas]

My post earlier has been fixed accordingly and adjusted to hopefully not throw people under the bus. Sincere apologizes  

[deathmoo]

Raid Leader: As far as a raid leader for our Flex raids (I have a different opinion for a 10 man raid leader), it should be a person who everyone can consistently count on to be at raids. They should NOT be expected to tell everyone how to play their class, however they should be expected to know the content, and be a leader when it comes pushing for gear and content and having the correct balance between being calm and laid back, and being the Nazi raid leader.



For Flex: I think that with the core 10 man team getting more gear lately, and having most of wings 1 and 2 on farm, we should be a little more relaxed when it comes to inviting guildies to our flex groups (especially when we do wings 1 and 2). Obviously this is within reason; we shouldn’t allow someone to come to flex and do 50k dps.



We might want to consider replacing the guild LFR that seemed to be a dud with a “guild flex”, I think a lot more people would be inclined to come to a guild flex for better gear, even if we have to PuG a few people.

[Deleted]

I've given people ample time before posting my thoughts.

A raid leader is a multi-faceted role as there are a few core aspects to getting a raid team up and running and keeping it that way through progression. 

People Management

I had to take a course on leadership like 2 years ago and another on team work. The most important thing I learned is the distinction between a group and a team. A group is a collection of people acting as individuals, whereas a team has synergy and comes to rely on each other - and it's called a raid team, not a raid group. As for leadership, there's many different models varying from top-down to consensus building and having a leader be someone who supports the community. So what kind of leader they are is open to interpretation, but leadership still needs to exist. A major part of leadership is dealing with people. On a team of 10 people, that can mean managing personality conflicts - 'cause raiding never causes drama right? In a guild such as ours, we have a diverse field of raiders from highly casual to fairly hardcore and that brings with it its own tensions. When there's only room for 10 people on a team but 13 people who want to go, the raid lead determines who goes or doesn't. Despite people's best efforts and intentions, people aren't always very good at the roles they set for themselves, and the raid lead ends up being the person to make the decision to place them in another role where they can excel or bench them rather then see the whole team suffer for one person being difficult. The raid lead looks at the big picture and tries to fit everyone in it in that regard.

The Technical

Raids are memorization of patterns. The WoW community at large processes that and spits out 1 or 2 strategies to handle that stuff. But each raid team is different based on class make up and disposition of its players. The raid lead has to synthesize the meta-game strategies and adapt them to their team. Sometimes the members they have can't execute those strategies well and changes need to be made. Sometimes you under or outgear a fight, and sometimes you have a stacked group with too many paladins so you milk their specific abilities to traverse obstacles. Certain players can handle certain roles while others can't, and you can either sit and wipe waiting for people to learn, or you give the play to those who can and let them run with it - a decision to be made in all cases when setting up a fight. When you run into a hard fight and what you're putting out there isn't cutting it, you dig into your tool chest and you pull out what you need, the overlooked abilities. So a facet of the technical side of things is for the raid lead to be able to understand why the group is wiping and then troubleshoot how to prevent that from happening. In this regard, Light's approach is to seek more of a dialogue among the team to figure this out, but I am too loudmouthed and start spouting out answers. While I am talented in this area, my speaking up inhibits others from developing the skill and becoming a more active contributor to the team. As I've said repeatedly in raid chat, whenever you find yourself dying to a mechanic, read through your spellbook and odds are you'll find an ability to tackle it you've been overlooking. The most knowledgeable raid leads can augment their raider's knowledge in this area. Take it on faith that every class has something to tackle every challenge - it's designed that way. Towards that end, your talents are now part of that system, a customizable toolbox to fit each unique situation - be flexible. The raid lead's job is to be flexible and treat each boss encounter as a puzzle with the tools at their disposal - that's what raiding is, team based puzzle solving.

Setting the Tone

In the realm of making decisions, the raid lead sets the expectations for the group. It's the part of leadership where you communicate a vision to your team and get them to follow it. Example: Warlin complained for months about how slow our team moved in a night but always felt powerless to do anything about it, saying our team wasn't taking things seriously and was too casual to be 10-man raiders - first night Light was raid lead he said outright people would take breaks during trash pulls and we would always be pulling and moving forward, no dawdling, and we moved twice as fast. Simple communication of expectation addressed what was seen as an intractable fact. Each week we ask what we're doing for next week's raid - are we trying to progress or are we farming for more gear. Those are the decisions Light makes as to the disposition of the team: what it can handle, what it needs and what do people want to do.


It is NOT the raid lead's job to explain the fights to people - to list that as a responsibility, let alone one of its core tenants is to absolve others of their obligation to come prepared. If all the above are the responsibilities of the raid lead, the team members have one major responsibility, come prepared. Have your gear in order (gemmed/enchanted/reforged), have pots and flasks lined up, know the fights and know your class. To enter a raid with little to no knowledge of the fight and ask someone else to take time out to explain it all to you is disrespectful to your fellow raiders because it says you don't value their time enough to take the time to come prepared. Why should 9 other people be forced to wait several minutes while someone relays information that is readily available from numerous sources...several times over the course of the night? Yes, the raid leader is probably going to know the fight more intimately then others having had to work out strategies for the team to follow, but is mid-raid the time to be learning (especially considering that also means it's your first time seeing the fight, so you're primed to perform like a veteran)? When the raid event is posted a week in advance, you have ample time to learn the fights and we're now in content that is 7(?) months old, there's no excuse for showing up unprepared and making others wait on you.


Leadership on the 10-man Team vs Flex Team

Light has put forward a few points to his vision of how the 10-man team operates:
1) Always be pulling, no idle downtime.
2) Less top-down management/less callouts - you have DBM, use it.
3) By extension, more personal responsibility on the part of players. Healers need to coordinate themselves, not be reliant on the raid lead to micro-manage them. By the same token, Tanks coordinate their stuff etc. It also extends to crowd-sourcing the discussion on puzzling out raid mechanics after a wipe, less emphasis on the raid leader doing everything in favor of seeing the team share the responsibility.
4) Everyone should be allowed to get a 10-man clear eventually, but the best players pave the way.
There may be more in time as he's told me a few times, he doesn't believe in pulling too many levers at once. As we adjust to those and accept them as the norm, there'll be more changes added in.

What you need to consider is that whoever runs the Flex team going forward will be a Jr. Officer, thus with authority to elaborate on and act on their vision of how things should be run. They'll also be answering to Light and need to act in accord with his plans or choose to deviate deliberately by creating a more marked difference in how the 2 teams are run. Both teams will be continuing into Warlords to try to accommodate the different levels of players we have in the guild. The ultimate goal of this discussion is to answer what sort of leadership model should be applied to the Flex team. I emphasize the discussion part of that sentence since that's part of the whole raiders needing to be more responsible for the raid experience they get instead of having one handed to them by a controlling figure. 

[Deleted]

What is a raid leader?
To me, a raid leader is essentially a person who has the ability to lead another person or persons in a forward-movement direction with similar goals. A raid leader needs to be firm, but reassuring. A raid leader needs to be able to point out mistakes, and at the same time, make the person who made those mistakes not feel inadequate or a "bad raider." A raid leader needs to motivate his/her team, to reach the ultimate goal, to perfect the dance and the pattern for each boss encounter within the raid. A raid leader can't insult or put down anyone on their raid team. Negative energy and emotions will slow a team, and slowly deplete its progress. When I was growing up, my parents instilled on me a method called "tough love." We are all human, we all make mistakes. However, we can learn from these mistakes and grow. Go ahead, call out that person not moving out of the shockwave missiles, but make sure to inform them if they do a little side-step, they can prevent their character from using some valuable defensive cool downs on something trivial, and to use it on something where it might save the raid from wiping on that encounter. In-game and out of game, we're all human beings. We like to know we're doing well, that we're doing something right, especially at something we all enjoy doing. I firmly believe this is essential for a raid leader to know. We're all human beings at the other end of this game, and we all have feelings. The way we feel greatly impacts our game performance. If you need to criticize someone on something, make it constructive criticism. It lets the person know they need to work on something, but also reassures them they're doing a great job already and that they are valued.


The Flex Situation
I don't know what to say about the flex situation. All I know is that Ten is stepping down for his reasons and we're in lue of a new flex leader. A few people have ran the weekly flexes for the guild so far, and I thought they did ideally. Me, however, no. I didn't realize that I would succumb easily to the pressures of running a flex. I've never been the type of person to really lead people and instruct them on fairly new content. Give me something 1 or more expansions ago and I'll do fine, just not current. I don't know, maybe its something I can work on. Anyway - I've listened and there are people who have no interest in being the flex leader, but they are being told they need to run 1 flex raid regardless. I don't think this would help the flex situation at all, only slow it down. If you're having people who have no interest in running flex, run flex, then the people who have a high interest have to wait longer to run it, thus preventing the flex team from finding its new leader.


My View
Treat others the way you would want to be treated. I don't think there's really more to it than that. At the end of the day, we're people. We have blood, we have flesh, we have feelings. Regardless of a 10m team and a flex team, a raid leader or a leader in general, they have to trust their team. They have to believe in their team. They have to be willing to work with their team, and their team work with them. A leader needs to be approachable. Most importantly, above all, a leader needs to believe in his/her team, to know they can do it, and the team believe in their leader, and know he/she can and will lead them to victory… and lots of loots!

[nogo]

Raid leader... I really dont know, and the more I think about it the more my mind is blank. I dont have a problem with the current raid leader or with any raid leader we have had so far.Maybe if I had an issue or a problem I would have an opinion on the matter but I really dont.

[bizzbazz]

This is going to be really short and REALLY Sweet
What is a raid leader?
 My rendition of a raid leader is a person that knows what hes/shes doing, how to do it and how to help others do it. Simple as that. He/She needs to be able to know what to do in certain situations whether in game or not. Picture a raid group stuck IRL on a dangerous island....Will that leader be able to guide them kind folks out of that horrid place....but wait just one person cant carry the team. everyone has something to bring to the raid but its the leaders responsibility to utilize that thing and make it worth having.That my friends is how you climb Mount Everest.

The Flex situation:
What raid team has downed Garrosh on flex? Who was that great leader that lead them to victory with guns-a-blazin? *Cough* Drazzl *Cough* Yeah...thats the kinda guy I'd like to get behind.


The problem:
People ain't wanna get behind the rape train. Its cool. But I for one have felt myself getting better from being around the raid group. So i must say. Why change. Why mess with greatness to look for weakness?

"A lot of problems in the world would disappear if we talk to each other instead of about each other."

And from the great Forest Gump "That's all I have to say about that."
Good day sir!

[yon]

Sorry, this might end up being a bit long winded. If you would rather get the gist of it:

TL;DR - I honestly don't mind who ends up raid leading because everyone has their pros and cons. Nobody is perfect.

What makes a good raid leader? Well before we consider raid, there are a few leading styles:

1. Autocratic: where the leader is the one making all the decisions, and the others simply follow what the leader has already decided.
2. Democratic: where the leader makes the final decision, but asks for input from the followers.
3. Supportive: where the leader isn't exactly inherently "leading". They support with information and by setting deadlines, but otherwise don't get involved (Don't take the head).

Which one is best for raiding? Well, just like we've found out by letting others try out leading... There isn't really one style that suits all situations. Autocratic (seen as more elitist in raiding terms, but I'll talk more about that later) is good for beginning new content where strategies need to be thoroughly thought out and discussed. Mistakes have less leeway to be made, and more organization needs to be dictated. Democratic (seen as more casual in raiding terms) is better for when content is better known. Mistakes can be made and experimentation can begin. One person making all the decisions isn't as positive simply because new ideas are sought after.

For this, I do not think that Supportive is viable at all as a raid leader, simply because participation is required.

Qualities specific to raid leading include the following in my opinion:

• Consistancy: To be there, actually leading at the same time specified every week. No one can follow if you aren't there when you say you are.
• Wisdom/Knowledge: Know the fights, know the roles, know where there might be mistakes made, and know how to improve.
• Patience: Keep your pride, depression, and rage from the stress of raiding at bay. Lashing out at your followers doesn't help anything in the short or long term.

Qualities specific to the perfect raid FOLLOWERS:

• Humility: You have wonderful DPS. You have amazing Heals. You keep all of the aggro. But remember there's always someone out there doing it better. Keep yourself grounded and you'll find yourself more open minded to criticism to improve yourself.
• Consistancy: Real life happens, but if you really want to do something you will make sure to schedule around it. If you show up more, you'll be more likely to be chosen in the event of a difficult choice.
• Loyalty: If you do everything for the benefit of your fellow teammates rather than yourself, you will be more cohesive as a unit. There's always suspicion if you start dipping your hand into too many jars, and in the end if you get what you were striving for with your friends then wouldn't it feel even better?
• Relaxation: Don't bring outside issues into the raid atmosphere if possible. Just like the leader, you will be under tension and pressure. Make sure to keep calm, as well as drama separate from the task at hand and you will find that putting aside differences makes all the difference.

Qualities EVERYONE should strive to have in a raiding atmosphere:
1. Be open to constructive criticism: There is a difference between insults and criticism, especially when it is constructive. There is also a difference between being offensive and a critic. Those giving constructive criticisms want you to get better as a person and a player. Those insulting you want to boost their own ego.
BAD - "God Yon is so terrible at her class. Why doesn't she just switch to Destro already and stop being bad?"
GOOD - "Yon is not doing so well with her spec... Perhaps she'd be better at Destro? Or maybe she needs to coordinate her rotation and procs better? I should see how she is doing it and offer my advice."

2. Be polite: Oh boy you just heard someone say in a casual raid conversation that they really like "BUBSY 3D". You are anti-Bubsy 3D. Are you going to shit all over it and start a huge debate mid-boss pull? No. Because you're polite. If you want to start a debate you'll do it after raid hours.

3. May I say patience again?: I cannot stress enough that this is a group of 10+ people working together to try and get a puzzle you actively have to partake in completed. There are going to be people sometimes that you aren't fond of. Sometimes even the people you normally like might catch you off guard with something you hate. People have off nights. People have stress. If you can remember to be patient and to remember that these folks are your friends, then perhaps things would go even more swimmingly.

The Question of Casual or Elitist

This is more of an ongoing question I've dealt with after actually raiding with a few other teams in the past. Where is the threshold of elitists versus casual playing? Clearly they hate each other, and unfortunately are considered a sliding scale.

Casual playing is usually heralded by laid back attitudes (oops we wiped again, let's pick it up and try again), and scattered organization. At the extreme, casual raiding is legitimately a pug where everyone decided that they didn't want to waste time learning the fights, and those that already knew it misremembered the facts. No one gets upset when the dps and heals are low, or when aggro is barely being held. As long as everyone has fun and just takes a shot at the puzzle/mechanics together it doesn't matter how many hours were wasted. The primary goal is "enjoyment". They see the raid for what it is, a game to be played. Elitists look down on them as children and lazy.

Elitist raiding is usually heralded by strict attitudes (You didn't move out of the fire in time! DKP Minus! All of you!), and enforced organization. At the extreme, elitist raiding is a job-type of enlistment usually in a guild. To even get into the guild you have to send in a "resume" of sorts and prove that you are worth their while. Making mistakes is not justified, at least not repeatedly. Make sure your dps, heals, and aggro management are up to par, lest you be shamed and booted from the guild. As long as the content is cleared and everyone gets their gear, it doesn't matter how many hours were wasted. The primary goal is "Progress". They see the raid for what it is, a challenge to be beat. Casuals look down on them as uptight and jerks.

So in the middle of this, presumably would be the kind middle ground where there are relaxed players who want to focus on progress but won't act like douches when a mistake is made. I would like to think that our guild raiding team is about as close to this as it gets (although apparently we're more in the casual line of things. Oops?). I like the style of raiding we've had so far. Not only has it made us think, but also made us better players. And more than that... for some of us we have seen both sides of this coin. At least for me, our raiding experience has allowed me to go through the understanding that perhaps both sides can be awful and good in their own ways. I know I have thought both, "Wow those people are really exclusive. What assholes." and "Wow those people are really too lax. Are we going to get anywhere?"

To me this signals growth and open mindedness, and I hope that you all in the group see it similarly. This is also why I've come to the conclusion that through raiding with so many leaders, including leading one myself, that all of the styles presented had good and bad sides. Honestly I do not mind who ends up leading as long as they are willing to deal with the stress of leadership. Hopefully the followers of this leader remember to respect and understand all the sides and reasoning behind the raid leader. Especially if they had an option of raid leading themselves.

Specific names as to who I think could lead permanently? Not to put them on the spot, but personally I liked the raiding styles of:
Ten: You have the information, experience, and the willpower.
Light: Do I dare say why? You're already the leader and have shown us our own raid's strength and got us to Garrosh 10 man.
Sal: Laid back when you need to be, but gets down to serious business. You may not have experience but you have willpower and control.

Special call out to Bazz for being the closest to a "Supporting Leader" than anyone else I've seen. I think this style would be good for raids we have already practiced.

Why have I not put myself up for raid lead? I did lead the flex once? Well. Plain and simply, I do not want to. I recognize that I am definitely more diplomatic in my leading style, so I look to others for a consensus. This is not time efficient. This is not progress-based. Even if I wanted to lean more towards progressive kills, I am more casual on the sliding scale of elitist vs. casual. I will always be thinking about what the team needs experience on and how they feel. If anything, as a raid leader I'd be more focused on wants rather than needs. This is only ever good for fights the majority knows, for if I had to outright explain a fight that nobody but myself knew we would be in a pickle.

Sorry. I am as always quite neutral. I like seeing both sides of things, and understanding as much as I can comprehend.
And this is why I feel that Nogo's response is more than expected. There isn't a clear answer to this.

[Deleted]

As we near a point where everyone has weighed in on this discussion, we need to move to the next stage, addressing responses to what others have said, not simply expressing our own thoughts. That is merely laying the groundwork for a discussion, but a discussion requires we talk TO each other, not AT each other.

I think Yon expressed very well the difference between a casual and a hardcore raid guild - is the act of raiding itself a pleasure or is it the goal that drives us forward? I can only answer personally that I favor the goal. I find that on fights we have gotten down and can say we are farming them that we lean towards the more casual end of the spectrum, those are the times we see the jovial side of the team. Progression fights and ones we're still trying to master we are a much more serious minded group with very little talking save for raid callouts. As I see it, we dance back and forth between those 2 poles. What I've found is that this doesn't mater much which difficulty we're on, Flex or Normal, it really matters what fight we're on. Whereas before my thinking was that Normal and Flex should have different vibes, and maybe that will not be the case.

These 2 ends of the spectrum correspond pretty well with the divide between Autocratic (top-down) and Democratic leadership. I thought it was interesting Yon pointed out how as we're learning a fight and progressing, Autocratic leadership seems more suitable to our needs, however once a fight is learned Democratic seems more apt. This always brings me back to Light trying a more Democratic approach to the raid team and why it sometimes works and often meets with frustration. I think the tipping point is how well each person learns the fight for themselves over time, enough to be able to explain it. As Einstein said, if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. So, as we go into new territory, we see a rise in tension, more Autocratic leadership from those who profess to know and more quiet as people listen and follow. Conversely, as people gain familiarity, they discuss smaller details that pertain to their specific role and coordinate with each other, but people gain a sense of mastery and relax into their role with more confidence.

While addressing the topic of what sort of leadership we're looking for, it also does require us to answer the question of what sort of atmosphere we want. No one has said once they want a hardcore raid group and a few will say they really enjoy our more laid back approach. But as we've seen, we do have serious times and joking time. And we've also become more serious enough to notice and dislike when we simply spend time idling now. And while people may not like getting called out on mistakes or where their performance is lacking, most everyone acknowledges the drive to be better because of it and how their gameplay has evolved. So, this is not an all-or-nothing question, but rather I think there are different points on the spectrum we're looking for at different times.

Yon also raised the topic of how people have performed in their roles as raid lead, as did Manila. Manila found the details and decision-making stressful and realized very quickly the role was more difficult then he initially suspected and felt it did not suit him. We've now had 4 people sub in as raid lead with about 4 more to go, and in the last 9 months you've seen 3 other leaders. You can start to see how each approached things differently in attitude and in policies. It is well and good to discuss everything in theory speaking of casual and hardcore, but we have a lot of examples to draw from of what we liked and didn't like. 

I thank Yon for her estimation of my abilities and most all agree my technical knowledge of the game is mind-boggling. I would comment further on Light's approach in how he communicates more clearly then anyone else and has been the only raid lead to consciously set the tone for the raid team instead of react to it. He's also taken a bold step in asking people to up their game and step out of the sheltered autocratic leadership we've become accustomed to - epitomized by Nogo saying earlier tonight that her idea of a raid lead is someone who tells her what to do and she does it. Of the raid leader subs I've seen, I've been most impressed with Sal as well as he has a good handle on how to manage people and keep communication clear and timely. It was a favorite expression of some friends in the larp scene that running a game and getting players to follow plot was like herding cats - raiding isn't much different sometimes.

Moo made a point to de-emphasize the technical aspect of raid leader, I think fair and necessary. Of the 3 things I qualify for the raid lead position - people management, technical skills and setting the tone - I think people find the technical part of the job the biggest barrier to handling the role. In reality, that has the least to do with actual leadership, and everything to do with expertise. He also commented that the guild LFR should be replaced with guild Flex. To that I would say that was the original goal for Flex. However, my impression is that Flex has shown itself to be difficult for some people and that they find the experience more stressful or too difficult. Where the 10-man events are posted privately now, the Flex events are still open. It may be more the case that Flex does not seem so welcoming and open as it should be to others. Perhaps a more transparent and fair system could be construed closer to what we had prior to Flex. You come to an off-night of raiding (Used to be the weekends when Warlin was away and I  subbed, practicing old fights), it functions as a tryout. If you need work, you attend a workshop to get your numbers up. A lot of it seems to be a PR issue to me.

I think Bazz raised an interesting question. If one takes as the premise that each person brings something to the team, it becomes its own search to discover what that is and how best to utilize it. In a way, Light has been trying to get at this by asking people to speak up and add their input into discussing post-wipe, but this has seemed elusive (beyond my own actions getting in the way). Perhaps phrasing the question more like this would yield better answers. We all know I bring the technical stuff - I read through logs and know how to interpret numbers (a skill I can teach anyone who showed interest), I maintain a few spreadsheets for the raid team: one that tracks the overall gear status to make more informed decisions on what we can, can't or should be able to tackle, and now the error stat (if anyone is curious what theirs is and how they got it, ask anytime). Some people bring flexibility, of role by swapping specs as needed and a willingness to flex to the team's needs - though I hardly think that's all they bring. I also thought Yon mentioning my willpower as something I brought to the team, I'm goal-driven with a desire to improve and refine everything I see...regardless of what others think - simultaneously an endearing and frustrating quality.

So, my question to each of you is what do you think you bring to the team and how can it be utilized better? I understand if people don't want to talk about themselves in that regard, so perhaps it's more comfortable if you can point out the virtues others bring to the table as Yon has.

[Deleted]

I've read through the majority of the previous posts to date, and am now going to put in my two cents which will either go as unconsidered, unnoticed or actually deemed somewhat creditable.



What is a raid leader?

What I think a raid leader is, is someone who is knowledgeable of not just what content they're running. I think that their own specific class knowledge and ability, coupled with their own
ability to understand and "dance the dance" from fight to fight is crucial. As well, I think them having, but not needing, class knowledge for the other members of their team is a very good asset
as well. Its enough to understand yourself, understanding others can be a very useful thing too.

The flex "situation".

This is where I think there may, or may not be, some sort of... differing opinions and thoughts on the subject. I don't see this as a flex situation... I think the main reason there has been issues,
is that much like what people deem to be a raid leader, people don't share similar outlooks on what flex is. In my own opinion I see flex as not a proving grounds, but more of a sand box... A place
to learn more about yourself, the content you're interested in, and even about the people you wish to raid along side. I think one of the issues here is that Flex leaders and Raid leaders should have
different personalities, especially with out guild make-up. While having a leader for normal 10/25 man progression (normal or heroic) should have a leader, who I couldn't describe any better than by
saying "Lightpenguin", is whats needed there... For my opinion of flex, a different approach should be taken. So here is another potential question for the group from me is this...

What is FLEX, and what is a flex leader???

Flex to me (as mentioned before) is a raid setting in which you learn to better yourself by gaining more class knowledge, how to adapt to the fights within SoO on a lower difficulty of Normal/Heroic, but something more challenging than LFR. Flex should be a place where you can learn from your mistakes, and get a friendly, helping hand. A place to get gear, learn the "dances", better yourself and most importantly... HAVE FUN!!!


Flex should not be about people feeling uncomfortable or inadequate. It again should be your learning place. To receive tips to help better yourself, to get the knowledge of a specific fight or fights, to get a bit more gear to make your numbers BIG, and again - have fun with your guild!


Next up is... What is a flex leader???


A flex leader should not be the same thing as a raid leader in my opinion - simply because... Flex raiding, and Normal/Heroic progression are both different styles of play.

While in the Normal/Heroic raid setting, your leader should expect you to have prior knowledge of things mentioned above (Class knowledge, fight knowledge, Etc.), a flex leader should be someone who can provide you with the information you may not already have, as well as helpful tips. Being able to explain a fights mechanics so that everyone can understand, being able to offer a friendly and helpful tip on certain mechanics, or how to better utilize your own class specific moves to make a fight easier, I think those are quality traits in a flex leader honestly. 


One of the things we all need to really consider here is that... Mists of Pandaria has offered us a completely new, and innovative way of raiding... it is NOT the same as normal/heroic in any way in my opinion... Though some people treat it as progression, it shouldn't be held to the same level as 10/25 man raiding is. People may not have their true chance this expansion at normal and heroic progression raiding so for those who treat flex as such, I would like to see their experience fun and enjoyable. I for one don't mind to carry the people who need it through flex for whichever reason it may be. Gear, fight knowledge, or just as something to do - LETS. Have. Fun!!! !!!

[vivex]

What do people want from Flex and a flex leader?
As we have seen and people have pointed out everyone is different and wants and expects different things from flex some treat it as a proving ground a place where they can test their abilities away from the horrors of LFR, and some treat it as nothing more than a chance to sit back and have fun with their fellow guildies and get some loot. I am both i like to bring my alts in and see the limits that i can get to and at the same time i am much more relaxed in flex often listening to music and not stressing if i am doing my role perfectly (Unless we are on garry). The point is most of us want different things out of flex so it will be pretty hard if not impossible to get a leader that will completely please everyone so the best i can hope for since we have indeed decided to go down this route is a Flex leader who can balance the wants from the guild, a leader who wont mind farming the content for the people who want it but will change it up every now and then for people who want achievements or what ever it is that they want at that time.  

The tryouts. 
Some can see major differences in how each person who has tried out has handled the position, me not so much. Over the past couple weeks i havent really payed much mind to who was leading the flex since the only difference really was if they picked which wings we were doing or if they let us vote. Other than that the only difference among the tryouts was who that week got to split groups and pick when we lust on Naz'grim and as some have pointed out that part of leading the raid isnt all that important. Since all we have done is farm wing 1 and 2 as if it was going out of style (i think only one dared to take us to wing 3) which have been nothing more than us carrying these fights on farm mode which i have no major problems with but i'd like to see how these tryouts handle the more stressful bosses, how do they respond after a wipe or two? These are the things i would like to know about my new potential flex leader before i can really pick from the people who have led the flex. 

LOL but flex isn't hard its basically LFR i wouldn't even consider it raiding really what are you even worrying about ?  
Then let us go say hello to garry shall we? 

The results. 
'Look at all the new attendance surely this is working and this person or that person did the best since the most people showed up.' Since we are swapping out leadership each week we cannot really tell which leader the guild likes the most, new leaders are exciting of course more people will come out to see how they do but since they are only given one shot at leading instead of two or even three we cannot see if the people that came out to see these leaders will follow them into a flex a second time. Who's to really say if any of these leaders worked in the eyes of the raiders who were avoiding flex before?

Our next steps. 
What are our next steps do we continue to try out people for 4-5 weeks or is it time to group up and talk this out and see which leader the people want and if the original problems the flex had have been fixed in the first place? 

Me and what i bring. 
I don't think i could say what i bring to a raid as a raider or a leader that anyone else doesn't, i generally try to stay positive and silly but i'm sure while some enjoy that others probably see it as annoying. I find it challenging to see where i stand in the raid or in the guild in general, am i picked because i am a good healer or is it because we simply don't have any other healers to choose from? Other than my ability to play a role that is scarce among the guild as of now i don't see what i bring that anyone else couldn't. Until i figure that out i will continue to wiggle my glowing fingers all over the raids booboos. 

[Deleted]

I will have to disagree with you a bit Viv. The initial posts were to solicit everyone's thoughts, but that isn't the end of the conversation, it is only the start. The whole thing conversation being a two-way street. Right now people have their own opinions and nothing more. There is still the act of listening and responding. The goal is for people to get on the same page of what experience we're looking to get from Flex. There doesn't need to be total agreement, only enough that people's aims aren't at cross ends.

You're right in that overall we've seen little difference in how people performed as they're running the same content which is auto-pilot for us now. So as far as expertise and detailing strats, you won't see a distinction. There has been some difference in how people've handled preparation and anticipation, responsiveness to questions and kept a good pace - in short, people management.

We've about finished Phase 1 of this experiment. Phase 1 has been a compulsory round robin of all 10-man raid members taking a shot at leading the raid for a night. Now that they've gotten to see a bit of what it's like from that perspective, we move on to Phase 2. Phase 2, anyone who wants to continue experimenting with the role gets another chance and we look to run some of the harder fights to really test their mettle. Yes, running wings 1 and 2 as farmable content was there to offset the compulsory nature making everyone lead for a night. Phase 2 is set to go for an undetermined amount of time, enough for interested parties to fully try out the role. After that I think we'd go down to a vote on who people would like to see fill the position. Simultaneously, I want to keep this thread going as there is dialogue to be had and furthered that should line up with Phase 2 during Flex.